JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
The entity known as DOGE, led by billionaire Elon Musk, is touting its cost-cutting measures across the federal workforce. But as NPR and others have documented, the Department of Government Efficiency's math does not always add up. Now DOGE says it's busy at work at both the Pentagon and the Department of Veterans Affairs. At this point, it's not entirely clear what that means. So for more, we begin with NPR's Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Hey there.
TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Hey, Juana.
SUMMERS: Tom, tell us what you're hearing from the Pentagon.
BOWMAN: Well, the Pentagon put out a memo on Monday saying that the firings would start that day. They are looking to cut tens of thousands of probationary employees and using that money to pay for priorities such as more drones, ships and submarines. But, Juana, we're not getting a lot of detail from the Pentagon about where those cuts will come from. I'm getting calls from contacts in the Army, Air Force and Defense Health Agency about job cuts that have already taken place. One Air Force officer told his subordinates - get this - he's learning more from Facebook than his own command.
SUMMERS: Huh.
BOWMAN: Officials say cuts will start with so-called low performers and also those jobs the Pentagon says that are, quote, "not in the public interest." An Army veteran who worked at the Defense Health Agency said she got cut with a notice saying she was a low performer. But get this - six months ago she got a stellar performance review she shared with me. It says she exceeded all objectives and her work was truly transformative. I spoke with a Capitol Hill aide who said they're trying to get details about how decisions are made in the scope of these firings.
SUMMERS: This sounds pretty confusing, I got to say. Is that how people inside the Defense Department tell you they're feeling too?
BOWMAN: Oh, it's very confusing. I'm getting calls from some contacts inside the government and as well as neighbors asking me what I've heard. There's some information is being put out on social media accounts run by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and other officials. But again, no great detail, just kind of this broad brush with terms like, quote, "streamline operations," "prioritize critical missions." And this vagueness, confusion - it is also a lack of coordination. It's all having an impact on operations. I was talking with a retired officer in Europe who works for the Pentagon on training missions with other countries. They have two budget analysts who left, and they can't replace them because there's also a civilian hiring freeze.
SUMMERS: Thank you so much, Tom.
At this point, I want to bring in NPR's Quil Lawrence for more on the confusion these moves are creating. And Quil, you cover Veterans Affairs. And I know that you reported this week that the Office of Personnel Management has frozen the VA out of its own hiring software.
QUIL LAWRENCE, BYLINE: Yeah. It's a program called USA Staffing, and OPM sort of runs HR for many federal agencies. We heard from VAs and sources in at least seven states that VA couldn't send out hire letters because they were frozen out of their own HR software. That's for medical staff like doctors and nurses who are supposed to be exempt from the hiring freeze. And VA says it's coming up with a work-around. But it seems like two parts of the government pitted against each other, where DOGE and OPM are making these firings, and the VA is scrambling to undo or work around what they do.
Twice, for example, now, they fired staff from VA Suicide Crisis Hotline, who are not exempt from the hiring freeze. But then, VA scrambled to rehire them because they are mission critical. It's a suicide hotline. They announced a sudden cut of 875 contracts - that was over a week ago - and then they pulled that back, and now they're floating a different list of contracts that are being cut. And staff I'm talking with say that this is not inspiring confidence for these crucial hires they need. Doctors and nurses are in demand, and they're worried people will think twice about picking a job at VA.
SUMMERS: You also reported this week on an internal VA memo that they plan to downsize and layoff - I think it was something like 70- to 80,000 staff. I mean, here's my question. Can they do that without affecting veterans' care or benefits?
LAWRENCE: VA Secretary Doug Collins says that they can. He says they're going to carefully figure out how to get back to 2019 staff levels without affecting health care or benefits decisions. Collin says, in the past, the VA just kept on adding staff and funds, and his approach is to stress more about efficiency. And the VA, it's huge, but, you know, it takes care of about 9 million veterans, and their mission is that they have to be wherever the vets are. If they're here in New York City or they're in Nome, Alaska, they have to go to them.
And, I mean, VA staff did grow about 80,000 since 2019. And that's mostly because they were added to deal with something called the PACT Act. So Congress passed the PACT Act to expand VA care and include veterans who got exposed to burn pits in Iraq or Agent Orange in Vietnam, radiation. And they brought millions of vets into VA care, and VA went on a hiring spree to take care of them. It's not going to be easy to cut them, especially at this pace.
SUMMERS: Right.
LAWRENCE: And veterans say, you know, they already paid for this care by sucking dust - toxic dust in Iraq or Agent Orange in Vietnam.
SUMMERS: That's NPR's Quil Lawrence and Tom Bowman. Thanks to both of you.
BOWMAN: You're welcome.
LAWRENCE: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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