STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
In announcing the end of fact-checking on Facebook and Instagram, Mark Zuckerberg of Meta said it had gone too far.
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MARK ZUCKERBERG: We've reached a point where it's just too many mistakes and too much censorship.
INSKEEP: Zuckerberg is the person who instituted fact-checking on Facebook years ago. But he now says fact-checkers have been too politically biased and have destroyed more trust than they have created, thus matching his opinion with the incoming Trump administration, where senior figures have criticized fact-checking and talked about acting against tech companies. We should note that Meta is a sponsor of NPR, but we cover them like any other company. And we've called Steve Brill, who is the co-founder of NewsGuard, where journalists rate the reliability of news sources. NewsGuard has faced some of the same criticism as Facebook. Mr. Brill, good morning.
STEVE BRILL: Good morning. How are you?
INSKEEP: What do you make of Zuckerberg's announcement that fact-checking - even from Zuckerberg, who said he was in favor of it once upon a time - has gone too far?
BRILL: Well, I have to concede that listening to your earlier report about the fires in California, that, to me, is the equivalent of saying we've overreacted to climate change and we need to stop worrying about it, and we need to ease up on our efforts to deal with the climate. The idea that we should ease up on our efforts to keep Russian and Chinese and Iranian disinformation out of our social feeds, which is going to be the result of this, is just ridiculous. It's just plain ridiculous. It's like he's living in an alternate universe.
INSKEEP: Well, let's talk through what's happening here. Did you regard it as censorship - when Facebook users call attention to a post that they think is doubtful or wrong, fact-checkers check it out. I believe it remains on the site, usually, but there might be some kind of notice attached. Did that strike you as censorship?
BRILL: When private people or private companies speak, it's called editing, not censorship. If The New York Times or NPR decides that this interview is wrong or that I'm not being responsible, you have a responsibility to edit me out. That's your job.
INSKEEP: So you're viewing Meta as a publisher, then - that they should actually take some responsibility for what they publish?
BRILL: Of course they should, because look at what they've been responsible for in the past. Right now, the Meta platforms are overrun by Chinese and Russian and Iranian, you know, disinformation. Right now, they're overrun by health care hoaxes, and they should take responsibility for that - not necessarily by blocking anything, but by giving their users some sense of the reliability of who is speaking to them.
INSKEEP: I wonder if the very thing that you're saying to me, though, is an argument for change because you're telling me, essentially, that fact-checking hasn't worked. Fact-checking has...
BRILL: No, fact-checking doesn't work...
INSKEEP: ...In fact, misinformation from people.
BRILL: ...Well, because it's after the fact.
INSKEEP: It's - there's a lot of it out there. Go ahead.
BRILL: It can't work because it's after the fact. The Facebook fact-checking was window-dressing. They were responding to the political pressure they were getting in 2016, and now they're responding in a different direction to the different political pressure they're getting. None of it is based on the principle that if you're going to be a republisher, you have all the freedom in the world, but you also have an obligation to be a responsible publisher.
INSKEEP: Would you have them delete speech? Because, I mean, I know people on the right were concerned about that. But now that...
BRILL: No.
INSKEEP: ...Elon Musk is running Twitter, they might - people on the left might really have a problem with billionaires deleting speech.
BRILL: I don't think people should block anything. I think they should give people more information about who is speaking to them.
INSKEEP: Your company, NewsGuard, tries to give people more information about who is speaking to them by rating the reliability of different news sources and different news stories.
BRILL: Right.
INSKEEP: What have you thought about the criticism that you have increasingly faced by people who are connected with or even in the new administration?
BRILL: Well, we face that same kind of criticism from people on the left, as well as people on the right. And, you know, it's what we signed up for. You know, we give MSNBC a lower rating than we give, you know, Fox News, and you can only imagine the criticism we got from the left about that.
INSKEEP: And you're just trying, in each case, to say, this is a reliable source. This is a reliable story. You give it a number, a score and you go from there.
BRILL: It's based on nine specific standards of journalistic practice. You know, do you have a corrections policy? Do your headlines match what your story is? It's our best effort. It doesn't mean it should be the only effort. It doesn't mean that others, you know, shouldn't be out there trying to compete with us. But it's what we try to do, and everything we do is completely transparent.
INSKEEP: Steven Brill is the co-founder of NewsGuard and the author of "The Death Of Truth," among many other things. Thanks for your time this morning.
BRILL: You're welcome.
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