SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Jesse Eisenberg came up with the story for his new movie, "A Real Pain," after seeing an online ad for a tour of Auschwitz. The movie he eventually wrote and directed is about a pair of cousins going back to Poland where their grandmother survived the Holocaust. He said the story was a way to explore all of the themes that are most interesting to him.
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JESSE EISENBERG: How do we reconcile having these kind of privileged lives while also being curious about the horrors of the past, how do we connect to the horrors of the past, and of just the awkwardness of feeling, you know, pissed off that they didn't have our right muffin in the morning time as we then, you know, hitch the bus to go see the site of Gettysburg or Auschwitz or, you know, Rwandan genocide, something? And just the irony of that, that we can feel self-pity when we're smart enough to be aware of how lucky we are.
DETROW: Jesse Eisenberg is now nominated for an Oscar for best original screenplay. He plays David in the movie, a guy who's a variation on the kind of well-meaning but neurotic character Eisenberg has become known for portraying. He chatted about some of his real-life neuroses with Rachel Martin on Wild Card. That's the show where guests answer big questions about their lives pulled from a deck of cards.
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RACHEL MARTIN: One, two or three?
EISENBERG: Two.
MARTIN: Two - what's something you thought was normal about your childhood that you now realize was unusual?
EISENBERG: You know, I mean, I was - I mean, but I don't want to, like - it sounds like I'm asking for pity. I was, like, a miserable, miserable kid. I was like - I mean, I had great parents. I was a miserable kid for some reason. And I thought it was, like, normal that we're all terrified of all things. And now I take my kids to school, you know, which I did two hours ago, and they run right into the building smiling. And the first, like, time that happened, which was, like, you know, first day of school - I don't know - two years ago, whatever, I was like, what is going on? How do they not know what's inside for them? And so I keep, like, as a parent, like, waiting for, like, the shoe to drop and reality to hit that actually life is miserable and going to school is miserable. And they just haven't felt that yet. And it's been, I would say, like, overall, like, an unbelievably revelatory experience watching my kid go to school in a different way than I did.
MARTIN: Has watching your kid not suffer from the same kind of anxiety that you did - has that lessened any current or existing anxiety that still travels with you into adulthood?
EISENBERG: That's such a great question. No, I think I'm too old to, like, change. So I'm still, like, continuously mystified as to, like, you know, people who seem to, like, walk through the world, like, with their head held high. I don't understand it. In fact, I asked ChatGPT this morning, do you think if I had more circumstantially difficult life experiences, if I'd be more confident asking for a bagel? And ChatGPT said, well, actually, there is a trove of academic evidence to support what you're saying, which is, like, you know, growth through trauma, etc. So this is, like, kind of what I'm obsessed about. ChatGPT is, you know, a great place to go for these very, you know, human questions.
MARTIN: Oh, that hadn't occurred to me. So it's not that you need...
EISENBERG: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Validation from artificial intelligence about what you're feeling, but it gives you...
EISENBERG: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Resources. It basically...
EISENBERG: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Gives you footnotes.
EISENBERG: Yeah. So I got a bagel this morning, and I felt too nervous to ask something about the bagel. And then I had this thought, which was that, I wonder if I had something more objectively horrifying happen in my life, I'd be much more comfortable asking about the bagel because I wouldn't have this kind of, you know, let's say, needless fantastical self-consciousness that for some reason I carry around. And so I said, is there any, like, literature to support this kind of thing? And it said, yes, there are theories about growth through trauma, which means, like, that, you know, if you experience something traumatic, you're working on growth in a way that maybe makes you less self-conscious about these kind of smaller, little, petty things.
MARTIN: Yeah.
EISENBERG: Little did the bagel know it was part of a discussion with a computer.
MARTIN: (Laughter) Poor, little, unsuspecting everything bagel. Was it everything? What was it?
EISENBERG: Yeah. It was pumpernickel everything. And my initial question was, is pumpernickel healthier than eating a plain bagel? And then I was thinking, oh, I could ask the people behind the counter. But no, it's a grab-and-go, fast New York place. They don't want to answer this kind of question.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
EISENBERG: And so then I went to ChatGPT, and I said, do you think if I suffered an objective trauma, I would have asked if the pumpernickel was healthier? And it said, yeah, maybe.
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EISENBERG: What a dumb life - a dumb, dumb life.
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MARTIN: OK, one, two or three?
EISENBERG: One.
MARTIN: One - what's a moment when you remember being brave as a teenager?
EISENBERG: Ooh, as a teenager. Give me a second. Well, so in my senior year of high school I kind of, like, came into my own a little bit. I transferred to a performing arts high school in New York City, and it was just like - I just became, like, an adult overnight going there. But the bravest thing I did was probably cut school one day to go see a Broadway matinee of "Judgment At Nuremberg," which maybe tells you enough about me, you know, to understand my full personality, which is that, like, you know, my friends and I - well, one friend and I, Graham (ph) - but also, like, the way we were planning it, like a heist at math class in the morning. Like, yeah, cool, I'm going to meet you at lunch, and we're going to get there. I think we can get student tickets for the last row mezzanine. And so, like, our big transgression in high school was going to see a Broadway matinee. I'm sure it would've been, like, the kind of thing, like, that if our teachers caught us, they'd be like, oh, my God, you sweet nerds, of course, go.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
EISENBERG: That's great. I'm giving you an A anyway. Yeah.
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MARTIN: One, two or three?
EISENBERG: OK, let's do No. 1.
MARTIN: No. 1 - what is your best defense against despair?
EISENBERG: Oh, wow. I married a woman who has, like, the same values as me. She - I mean, she's a far better person. She works in social justice, teaches disability justice and awareness in public schools, and her mom ran a domestic violence shelter for 35 years. And so she comes from this kind of world. She always just says, OK, so what are you going to do about it? So if I'm...
MARTIN: Yeah.
EISENBERG: ...Like, feeling miserable, she's like, OK, so what are you going to do about it? I'm like...
MARTIN: What's the action? Yeah.
EISENBERG: ...Oh, I feel so bad what happened to my friend. She always was just like, oh, let's call him now and try to get him a job. My friend didn't get a job. He's struggling. She's like, oh, I know - oh, you know, I could call my friend Lita (ph). She actually knows somebody who just lost their job here...
MARTIN: Yeah.
EISENBERG: ...Maybe they can talk, maybe they can work together. She just - there's not an instinct in her to wallow in it or to, like...
MARTIN: Yeah, ruminate.
EISENBERG: ...Make it about herself.
MARTIN: Yes (laughter).
EISENBERG: Yes. So I make it about myself...
MARTIN: Me too (laughter).
EISENBERG: Oh, God, I feel so guilty. She's not even aware that she's doing something...
MARTIN: Yeah.
EISENBERG: ...Different than me. It's just the way she's wired.
MARTIN: Yeah, yeah.
EISENBERG: And so I kind of - I look to her all the time, and we've been together forever, so, like, it's very easy for me to just kind of - just ask her.
MARTIN: I think it's so lovely that you found each other. It seems like...
EISENBERG: Oh, I'm lucky. I'm lucky. She's, you know - you know, I'm lucky because I'm not wired for anything good. She's wired to do all this good stuff.
MARTIN: That's not true, Jesse. That's not - I don't - I've known you for an hour, and I don't think you're wired to do nothing good (laughter).
EISENBERG: No, no. I'm a thoughtful person, but it doesn't lead to, like, you know, benevolent action. She's just, like - she's less contemplative than me. She's just very active and has a good heart.
MARTIN: Ruben Fleischer, your director, said that you were, like, the kindest person of all time, so, you know...
EISENBERG: Oh, he's judging me against actors.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
EISENBERG: He said one of the kindest actors.
MARTIN: It's true (laughter).
EISENBERG: Yeah. Yeah. That's like, you know, the tallest jockey. It - you know, it's a low bar in my profession.
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MARTIN: Jesse Eisenberg's new film, "A Real Pain," is out now. Jesse, thank you so much.
EISENBERG: Thank you so much for having me.
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DETROW: For a longer version of that conversation, follow NPR's Wild Card podcast. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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