STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Two federal judges have now told the Trump administration to reinstate fired federal workers. The administration dismissed them while claiming it was for their performance, which one judge called, quote, "a lie." The White House accuses the judge of seizing the president's power to hire and fire federal employees. The courts, in effect, are saying the president does not have the power to hire and fire any way that he'd like. Rather, the president has the duty to faithfully execute the laws passed by Congress, and those laws call for people to be hired and fired in a particular way. The ruling is a win for our next guest, Everett Kelley, who's national president of the American Federation of Government Employees, a union that does what it sounds like. They sued in one of the cases. Mr. Kelley, welcome to the program.
EVERETT KELLEY: Thank you, Steve, for having me.
INSKEEP: Congratulations to your side, but what do the rulings mean for your union members in a practical sense?
KELLEY: Well, it means, to me and to our members, that justice prevails and that when you stand for right, you know, right will prevail. We have laws in this country, and the justice system showed us yesterday that the laws will work if we continue to go down that path.
INSKEEP: Well, let's think about what happened here. These were provisional employees, some of them recently hired, some of them recently promoted. And they were told, you failed in your performance, and that's why we're firing you. What does it matter that they would be given that explanation, which appeared not to be correct?
KELLEY: Well, they have processes to go through, and they just failed to do that. But, you know, it could mean that these employees could not even get a job in the future - right? - saying that they were poor performers when they, in actuality, were great performers. And that's part of the problem in this case.
INSKEEP: Well, I want to just make sure that we understand this, because people get fired all the time in the private sector. They get laid off all the time in the private sector. And we're saying that in this case, there is a law that says you can only fire people in a particular way, and this wasn't it. Some people will wonder, what difference does it make? Why is it important that federal employees have particular protections against being fired in a random way?
KELLEY: Well, this is the thing. There are a contract that the federal government has signed with the workers. And we're saying they should adhere to those contracts. You know, irregardless to whether it's in the private sector, public sector, you know, if there's a contract signed, then they should adhere to that. Otherwise, then you're violating the amendments rights of those workers, you know, across the board, irregardless.
INSKEEP: OK, so follow a contract. That's a thing. Follow the law. That's a thing. Is the underlying purpose here to protect civil servants from some kind of political interference?
KELLEY: And that's the other piece of it because - see, this is my thing. You know, a person should not be losing a job inappropriately for giving the job to a billionaire crony. That's what we believe this is all about. You know, it's not about efficiency. It's not about saving the federal government money. But it's about making sure that the government fails so that we can give those jobs and contract those jobs out to billionaire buddies, and that's not right.
INSKEEP: Well, let's assume, for the purposes of this question, good faith - that there is a big budget deficit, which is true, that the federal government wants to save money, which is true, and that you need to reduce or want to reduce the workforce. What is the proper way to do that?
KELLEY: The proper way to do that is to have that discussion with the workforce through their union, if they have a union, OK? And, if so, then abide by the policies that are in place, which - you know, we have a problem doing the right thing, you know? And as long as we're doing the right thing the right way, OK - that's the only thing, is do it the right way, you know? The American people are going to suffer drastically, you know, if we don't.
INSKEEP: OK. So there's a process for reduction in force. One other question, in the seconds that we have - do your employees, by and large, want to return to work after all this? I'm not sure I'd want to.
KELLEY: You know, the people that I represent - they are very patriotic. You know, many of them signed up for this job, you know, because they wanted to provide a service to the American people, and they enjoy doing that. So they want to continue doing those services.
INSKEEP: So you think, by and large, they will return to work as soon as the Trump administration - presuming they act on this court order.
KELLEY: Absolutely.
INSKEEP: Although the administration is going to appeal. You're ready for a long court battle if you need to?
KELLEY: We're ready to fight any injustice, you know, as long as we need to.
INSKEEP: Everett Kelley is national president of the American Federation of Government Employees. Thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it.
KELLEY: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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