ASMA KHALID, HOST:
Just hours after his inauguration in January, President Trump began to fulfill his campaign promise to expand the number and scope of deportations of immigrants who come to the United States illegally. At the center of one case is a man from Maryland. His name is Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia. He was deported last month to a prison in El Salvador in what a federal judge now says was a grievous error because an immigration judge had already ruled he could not be deported to El Salvador because he might face torture in his home country. But the Trump administration insists he should stay there. With us now to talk about the Trump administration's immigration policy is Tricia McLaughlin, assistant secretary for public affairs at the Department of Homeland Security. Tricia, thank you for coming on the show.
TRICIA MCLAUGHLIN: Thank you for having me.
KHALID: I want to begin by asking you why the administration asked for a stay to the order to return Abrego Garcia when he was deported in error. The judge said that the administration has not shown, quote, "any evidence of gang membership."
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, that actually is just not true. An immigration judge reviewed evidence and determined he actually is a verified member of MS-13. There's also intelligence reports that he's involved in human trafficking. So I think the bottom line for the American people and for those who are listening today is that this individual in question, who's an MS-13 gang member, he should be behind bars, whether it be in El Salvador or in a U.S. detention facility. He should not be on the streets of America. And to remind listeners, MS-13 is a gang that murders, rapes, traffics drugs. They maim for sport. These are individuals we do not want in our country, especially those who are here illegally.
KHALID: Tricia, I know you all are saying that he is a member of MS-13. To be clear, the judge has seen no evidence of that. His lawyers also deny this. Will you all be releasing any evidence to the public supporting this claim?
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, every time that a gang member denies being a gang member doesn't mean we're going to share intelligence reports that undermine our national security, but I do have to correct the record there because there's been multiple immigration judges who have reviewed evidence that he's an MS-13 member and confirmed doing so, including the DOJ's immigration appeals. They affirmed his dangerousness and dismissed his appeal.
KHALID: You know, beyond the specifics of this one case, just given the sheer numbers of deportations that we are seeing without hearings, under this administration, do foreigners living in the United States have the right to due process, to a court process?
MCLAUGHLIN: Absolutely. In every single case, there is due process. When you're looking at members of MS-13 and Tren de Aragua and other terrorist organizations that were designated as terrorist organizations under President Trump and the Trump administration, due process does look different because you're under terrorist authority. So it's going to be more law enforcement sensitive, but I can guarantee and our DOJ guarantees due process to these individuals.
KHALID: So Tricia, you're saying that the cases that we have seen of people being put into detention facilities or, in some cases, flown to a foreign country without any hearing that there is due process? - because it doesn't look to the public like we've seen any indication of due process or court process.
MCLAUGHLIN: There is due process. It's more difficult to get into specifics when you're looking at national security issues, especially with terrorist individuals.
KHALID: Can you give us any indication of what that due process looks like?
MCLAUGHLIN: Again, it's law enforcement sensitive, and to give out intelligence reports just because these individuals are denying being members of these vicious gangs would undermine national security. If we did that every single time, that would simply be insane.
KHALID: So it sounds like in these cases, it's the government's word, though, against, say, a lawyer's word or against an individual's word. And there's no ability for any sort of recourse.
MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, I completely disagree with that. I mean, we've had multiple instances, actually, with the individual in question that you were mentioning earlier, the Maryland MS-13 gang member, where multiple immigration judges reviewed evidence and determined that he is a verified member of MS-13. That wasn't one judge. That wasn't two judge (ph). That was multiple judges and a appeals board. So I would actually just completely disagree with you. There's been multiple reviews and process, not just by lawyers, not just by the government, but by these immigration judges themselves.
KHALID: I want to ask you about students we have seen detained, in some cases now facing deportation. The White House and DHS have asserted that these students were supporting terrorism. They say that they were exercising their free speech rights criticizing Israel's war in Gaza. Can you articulate what sort of evidence you all have that support the claims of ties to terrorism?
MCLAUGHLIN: Absolutely. I mean, some of this looks like defacing property. Some of this is holding buildings hostage, making threats against other students, especially harassing Jewish students.
KHALID: But defacing property is not considered a terrorism charge, according to my understanding and broad...
MCLAUGHLIN: Of course not. But these individuals are here on visas, and visas are a privilege, not a rule (ph).
KHALID: And so there's a different set of rules - you're saying - for foreigners living in the U.S.
MCLAUGHLIN: If you are here on a visa, absolutely. There is a - that is a privilege, not a right. And the secretary of state maintains the authority to revoke that visa. And if that's the case, then ICE and DHS will enforce it.
KHALID: Tricia, I do want to shift gears and ask you briefly about the CBP Home app and the effort to have people self-deport. How is the administration tracking people who may want to self-deport, who may want to voluntarily leave the United States in this moment?
MCLAUGHLIN: Absolutely. There's a great app called CBP Home. It's a free app on all devices. And those who are here in the country illegally have the opportunity to self-deport, putting in some basic identifying information, and then indicate on the app that they have left the country. This is going to put them in a much better position. If they leave now, they don't have to be arrested. They don't have to be detained, and they could potentially come back to the country legally, the right way, and come and live the American dream. I think it's a really great tool that the Trump administration has given to these individuals.
KHALID: How many people have thus far used this app, and where have you seen them go to?
MCLAUGHLIN: North of 5,000 - so we are tracking this each and every day. And again, this just gives folks a really good option that they don't have to deal with ICE. And this is a safe - safer option for both law enforcement but also for these aliens who are in the country.
KHALID: Are you seeing a predominant sort of country of origin, or where are you seeing people go to?
MCLAUGHLIN: I can't get into specifics just yet, but we will surely give NPR that information as soon as we have geographically where people are going.
KHALID: The president has spoken about having the largest deportation in American history, and mass deportations are going to cost a lot of money. What is the strategy here if Congress does not give you the money that you all think you need to carry this out?
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, you're right. It is expensive because the immigration crisis that was manufactured the last four years has caused this very expensive crisis. But I think an option that we've just spoke to actually earlier is that self-deportation. It's very inexpensive, especially if people take that option to leave now and potentially come back to live the American dream. So we're going to keep on encouraging that, and we're going to keep on messaging to...
KHALID: But that is really, Tricia, a fraction of the overall population in the country, who, you know, is not here under a legal framework. So you're really looking at sort of a fraction of the overall population that has thus far used that app.
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, sure, and we need to keep on incentivizing that because, again, not only is it less expensive for the American taxpayer, but it is safer. It is far safer for these migrants in our country, and it's far safer for law enforcement. We don't want to have to be in the position where people are being arrested and detained. But if they're in this country illegally and they don't leave now, that's what we're forced to do.
KHALID: Tricia McLaughlin is the assistant secretary for public affairs at the Department of Homeland Security. Thank you for taking the time.
MCLAUGHLIN: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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